I Didn’t Tear My PDP Membership Card –Obasanjo – Part 2

Tope:     Are you saying Boko Haram has festered because of government’s incompetence, corruption….

Obj:     Even more.

Even more… Well, you have talked of corruption and government’s incompetence and I have talked of underdevelopment in the area.

Let me give you an example: we have six geo-political zones in Nigeria – South-West, where I come from; South-South, where the current president comes from; South-East, North-West, North-Central and North-East.

The gap in education in the South-West is about 79 per cent, South-East (76 per cent) and North-East is about 19 per cent.

Tope:     That is almost one-fifth.

Obj:     Yes. So, you can see that this type of gap does not make for overall security in the country. So, we have a lot of issues to talk about.

Tope:     Some of the kidnapped Chibok girls have passed through a very tough time in the hands of their abductors. If those girls are eventually released, what is the assurance that they will continue their education?

Obj:     Some of them have managed to escape.

I have met three of them who told me the story of their traumatic experiences. Those I met want to go back to school but not in Chibok. We have appealed for people who can help nationally and internationally. And at this moment, five of the Chibok girls who managed to escape are in the United States. We are looking for where we can put others.

Those are the ones who have escaped. The remaining over 200 are still missing and I think their history will be going on for the next three or four decades because we will never get them released in bulk. They would have been spread among those who would have taken them as wives and whatever but as they come out in later years, we will hear their stories.

And those of them who came out early and who we can help in their education, we will. But what is important is that we should prevent a reoccurrence of this type of situation. And that is why I said if government had acted immediately, maybe we would have been able to rescue a lot more than those who were rescued. That shows that we need immediate action to rectify wrong things that have happened.

Tope:     Considering attacks on some schools, are you in support of gender separation or you want them to be together?

Obj:     They must be together. In life, men and women are created to live together; so why should they be separated?

Tope:     Do you think the insecurity problems in some parts of the world are due to leadership issues?

Obj:     What do you think is the solution? Leadership matters in virtually all human institutions and organisations.

So, when you asked whether any lapses or laxity in any human community, particularly in our country (Nigeria), it is a leadership problem. I will say to a large extent it is a leadership problem. I tried to explain that, for instance, in the case of Nigeria’s Boko Haram. I think there have always been some people who are fundamentalists and we have them in all religions; fundamentalists are not limited to a particular religion. You have fundamentalist Christians and Muslims; we even have fundamentalist nationalists.

I don’t think that it is a problem. It is what they do, either because of perceived or real grievances; perceived or real injustices that matter. And that is an issue of leadership and governance. So, to a large extent I will say it is issue of leadership.

Tope:     In the short term, how do you think the problem of insurgency can be solved?

Obj:     In the short term, I think we have to offer two things, as I have always said. We have to apply the stick and we have to offer the carrot.

The stick will be the military and the carrot would be where we have failed in the area of development, particularly education, employment and all that. We have to address them. There would be some that can happen overnight but there would be some that will take years. For instance, the chap you sent to school this year, you won’t have the benefit of his education immediately; that is about 12 to 15 years gestation period. But there are other things we can do. There is hate preaching from some Muslim leaders.

Now, you can also have some Muslim preachers and leaders who will interpret the Quran in different ways – in a way of love, relationship, respecting diversity and all that. So, I believe that in the long run, the gap in the area of development, the real and perceived injustice must be removed. But in the short run, we have to deal with it with stick and carrot.

Tope:     You talked about the issue of leadership. What do you think African leadership could learn from the fact that the problem of insurgency has been on for long term?

Why can’t former heads of state help in solving the problem?

Obj:     I have always maintained that a political leader must first of all give good governance in all its ramifications and that is very important.

You cannot have corruption and expect people to feel happy. You cannot have corrup-tion and good governance as strange bedfellows; they don’t live together. You have to be honest with the people. Tell them the truth. You cannot be lying to the people and expect that that will give people satisfaction and they will say well done to you.

For me, I believe it is good governance in all its ramifications. Good governance which comes from good leadership.

Tope:     During the plenary, some points were raised about how ignorance is the root cause of terrorism.

But some leading actors in terrorism are educated individuals. In Nigeria, there was a report recently about the son of a former Chief Justice of the Federation packing his bags and taking his family to join ISIS.

So, if ignorance is the root cause of terrorism, what of those who are well-educated and still go for terrorism?

Obj:     Fundamentalism is about personal belief. Let me give you an example, when I was in prison in Jos, we usually had Muslim and Christian preachers coming to talk to people in the prison. There was this Christian preacher, who believed nothing could change his mind.

He believed that where the Bible states that you should “not be yoked with them” means that Christians should not associate with Muslims. That is his belief and there is nothing you can do to change his mind. He is a fundamentalist. I even told him: “Look, when the Bible was written, Islam was not in existence. So, do not be yoked with them means do not be yoked with sinners.” He said no, he won’t accept that. So, you have fundamentalists and the level of education doesn’t matter.

It is like an atheist; if you are atheist, you are atheist and it doesn’t matter whether you have a PhD in religious studies, you will still be an atheist. Your study of religion has nothing to do with your belief. So, I think the story you mentioned about Nigeria of a man leaving his family and going to join ISIS is an exception rather than the rule.

There have not been many Nigerians doing that. Like they say in my part of the world, where you have many children, you will have some that will not live in conformity with you or your way of life. Now, we have a population of 180 million; if one or two decides to go to Syria, we should accept that as part of what we have to live with. If we can prevent them, we should prevent them.

And don’t forget that when you talk about indoctrination, they do the indoctrination through the internet now. He could have been indoctrinated through the internet. So, we have a porous border so to say in terms of receiving information, knowledge and being indoctrinated.

That is the way I see it.

Continued in Part 3

http://newtelegraphonline.com/i-didnt-tear-my-pdp-membership-card-obasanjo